Since Eric gave Hardestadt's point of view...

[jasonb]

Here's the actual document agreed to by both the Inner Circle and the Anarch Delegates at Seattle. If Hardestadt's letter is ok to post, this has to be kosher as well, I'd imagine. By the way, word is, this has the tentative agreement of the Inner Circle, based upon a formal recognition after the Free Union hosts an ICC.

=============================================
Anarch Movement Negotiation Items


1. Recognition of the Movement as a wholly independent and sovereign organization, separate from the Camarilla.

2. Recognition of the Masquerade as the top priority of both groups. We all have a duty to keep the Masquerade whole and unbroken.

3. Respect for Territory; solid and stable borders. No hostile territory take-overs, each side holds what we have. Territory that changes hands in the future must be formally negotiated.

4. Respect and defense of Elysium Grounds, no matter where they stand. All who come in peace shall be given access and egress without restraint, and a Keeper may be appointed by the organization who holds the territory, to ensure Elysium.

5. A formal agreement of Non-Aggression between the Camarilla and the Movement.

6. Boons will be formally recognized as legal and binding across lines, between members of the Camarilla and members of the Movement. No member of either group shall be forced into a boon against their will.

7. Local Agreements; Leaders of local territories may create treaties between themselves to suit the unique nature of local relationships between the Movement organization and the Camarilla Sect. These addendums may add to, but not supersede or take away from, this overarching treaty.

8. Formation of a Diplomatic Committee with equal members of each group to handle disputes, problems, issues and complaints of members of the opposite organization at a high level should the issues not be solvable at the local level. This committee will resolve disputes, finalize boundaries, and investigate breeches of this Treaty. Selection of members and the terms of the members’ service are to be determined internally to each group.

9. Repercussions for violation of the Treaty.

10. Laws and Local Territory are to be followed in whole by visitors. Breeches and Crimes will be investigated by an appointee of the local authority as well as one advocate for the offender from the offender’s organization. Evidence will be submitted to the local authority for judgment. An advocate from the offender’s organization will be part of the proceedings, and must be allowed to make a statement to the local authority before punishment is levied.

10a. Status and the Local Law: Each organization recognizes that the other has a set of protocols for internal status and social standing. Members of either side will not be penalized or forced to recognize status beyond respecting the lawful authority within that organization’s own territories.

10b. Recognition: An individual who carries the “Acknowledged” status of the Camarilla or the “Committed” reputation within the Movement shall be “Recognized” by the local leadership of the other organization while visiting territory. By this recognition, we shall identify those bound by this treaty.

11. Who is bound by the Treaty; General Responsibilities:

11a. The Camarilla: This treaty extends to all Kindred who hold the Camarilla Sect Status of “Acknowledged.”
This Agreement in no way inhibits members of the Camarilla from lawfully ruling their Domains and upholding their own structures, including the Traditions and the Protocols of Status as it applies to their members. This authority does not automatically extend into Movement territories. Members of the Camarilla, regardless of standing within their Sect’s structure, shall operate free from undue influence of members of the Movement. Members of the Camarilla will not be prevented from travelling through Movement Territories, provided they do not interfere with Movement interests within those territories, including Hunting and Feeding. Members of the Camarilla will inform the local Movement point of contact that they are travelling through Movement Territory prior to entering that organization’s territory. Members of the Camarilla are granted leave to restore and defend the Masquerade in Movement Territories, provided they first exercise due diligence in contacting local members of the Movement, to allow them opportunity for initial action. In cases where immediate contact is not possible or feasible until after the event is passed, or if granted leave to handle the issue before acting, the Camarilla member must communicate all such activity to local Movement leadership immediately thereafter. The Camarilla will not otherwise influence the territory, governance and leadership of the Movement. These rights may be added to by local agreement, defined and agreed to by the free will of both local leaders.

11b. The Movement: This treaty extends to all Kindred who hold the Movement reputation of “Committed.”

This Agreement does in no way prevent members of the Movement from upholding their own structures, including the ideal of “Libertas” and self-governance within the organization. This authority does not automatically extend into Movement territories. Members of the Movement, regardless of standing within the organization’s structure, shall operate free from undue influence of members of the Camarilla. Members of the Movement will not be prevented from travelling through Camarilla Territories, provided they do not interfere with Camarilla interests within those territories, including Hunting and Feeding. Members of the Movement will inform the local Camarilla point of contact that they are travelling through Camarilla Territory prior to entering that Sect’s territory. Members of the Movement are granted leave to restore and defend the Masquerade in Camarilla Territories, provided they first exercise due diligence in contacting local members of the Camarilla, to allow them opportunity for initial action. In cases where immediate contact is not possible or feasible until after the event is passed, or if granted leave to handle the issue before acting, the Movement member must communicate all such activity to local Camarilla leadership immediately thereafter. The Movement will not otherwise influence the territory, governance and leadership of the Camarilla. These rights may be added to by local agreement, defined and agreed to by the free will of both local leaders.

[ericd]

I posted Hardstedt's statement to the Camarilla.

However, what I am hearing from a lot of the Camarilla IC players is that they are taking a dim view at best of the situation.

In fact to most it seems like those of the movement have spit in their face. And they should.

The movement was spared once ,and now essentially in the mind of the Camarilla has taken a dump on their leniancy. In their mind they should have been killed 500 years ago.

Just stating what I have heard from a few of the 6th gen players at XX.

I know Pwyll would have been of the opinioin that all the movement should either leave or die. They need to carve out their own place. Raphael would have had some tolerance for it. chen Szen is ok with it, but being assamite and now being part of the tower, he was in a similar situation as the movement essentially. Although if war happens he would kill them without remorse or worry.


Eric Dennison
US2002022107
US ANST Awakening

[jasonb]

The Justicars, or at least one of them, have a strikingly different opinion. Someone posted the Toreador Justicar's statement to Canada. The line I remember went something like "If any of my princes get so very bored that they feel they must attack the Anarchs, they should come see me. I will find something more... useful for them to do."

It'll be interesting to see what happens.

Jason Baughman
US2003041531

[ericd]

From the elders point of view, the movement spit in their face over the madnanimous gesture of letting them live the first time.

No one that I know is planning on attacking them, however if they wish to stay, they need to start paying in boons for the borrowed land, feeding rights, access to the city at all...etc...

If they refuse to pay, the need to leave the area, or be considered invaders.

I am sure there is a lot of different interpretations. However I think ultimately people will be leniant with their friends and harsher against those they want to pvp with.

I am a bit worried about Charlotte and how that will handle.

Eric Dennison
US2002022107
US ANST Awakening

[jasonb]

*nod* What it seems is that Global Plot and major plot NPCs have a certain view of how this should work (from what I'm seeing, it seems to follow the 'Two State' philosophy, not unlike the Israel/Palestine conflict), and then high-octane princes are pushing an alternate view ('Kill 'em or screw 'em, but let the pain begin').

I'm certain this will produce wonderful plot in cities with established Anarch PCs who can push back against pressure, or have the established force to make pressure not a winning option. This more accurately represents the actual Canon view of things- Anarch numbers are growing, strength is growing, and they are a force worthy of respect (or at least too much trouble to initiate a two-front conflict, even with the Sabbat conflict in temporary abatement).

The problem is, in far too many places like Greenville, this isn't the case in regards to actual PC mix. Due to this fact, while the Global NPCs are trying to make people respect where the world is by story, I'm hearing about Princes ignoring anything except 'Well, in my game, there are almost no Anarchs, and noone ever comes from outside the Domain, so I don't have to worry! *curbstomp*'

The fact that this would rapidly entice a ravening horde of Anarchs to come discuss proper etiquette with said Prince, in Canon? Not something most of these Princes have to worry about, due to ST protection (how long has this domain said they won't approve visiting, high-powered dignitaries to screw with our sandbox?), isolation from the Global game, etc.

In effect, my view of the situation is Global trying to push a canon-based fact (Anarchs are really a force in canon WOD), and players are abusing a regrettable OOC fact (Anarch play, for whatever reason, is marginalized in many domains, ours included).

It's frustrating, for someone who feels that a rich, two-political-system game would add a tremendous amount of plot and interaction to the game. The feel I get from the major plot NPCs (including what the Inner Circle agreed to in Seattle...) is completely at odds with how Princes who should be f'ing listening to these people are actually doing. Not surprising, but somewhat disheartening, when we're intentionally limiting the viable play options by this course of action.

If you feel my read is incorrect, please, let me know. I'd love to hear the other side of this argument.

Jason Baughman
US2003041531

[ericd]

I do disagree with your sentiment.
I know that if I go and crap in someone else's yard that I can expect an @$$ whooping.
And if I run home, I expect the VST to allow them to give me that whooping. I am sure he would also. =)

Which is different than, I am coming to slam your game cause I can, which happened a lot in the old chronicle.

Now I do like the ideas of the anarchs, but they really should be a bit rare. however, in all cases, they were granted solely rights as anarchs. So suddenly with their turning their back on the Camarilla. They actually dont own anything unless they had a barony somewhere.

In my mind if I were a hateful old vampire, I would totally have them removed, charge the heck out of them or kill them for violating my domain. However with people playing in groups with their friends, I bet in most cases it will be ok sure, its cool. Your fine over there.

So it has great possibility to be some awesome tug of war politics, but I dont think people are going to put their hearts into it.

The view is and should be those of the movement just turned their back on the camarilla. Which they did a long time ago and now in many ways have even further turned their back on the camarilla.

From the anarch perspective they are probably like...woohoo...we are free.
From the camarilla the perspective should be, this is an organization they allowed to form when they should have killed them all. Respected elders died at their hands.
Sure thats 500 years ago, but old vampires are not going to forget that, and they shouldnt.

With so many elders in the game, I cant imagine that this should be an issue. 50% elder population in the game right now.

So more than half of the people in play overall should be like ..hey...what the..?

eric dennison
US2002022107

[jasonb]

Interesting view, and I definitelly can see your points. Leaving aside the disproportionate elder play numbers at the moment, as that's a topic for a whole different conversation...

You appear to be putting forth a very PC-centric point of view, which is entirely appropriate, and I support it, to an extent.

The points about which I disagree would be as follows;

1. PC interaction should rule this game, to a large part. However, over the boards I'm watching, and increasingly participating in (primarily Brujah), there is a fair amount of respect for Inner Circle decisions... i.e. the majority view tends to be that we should follow what the Circle negotiated in Seattle.

In fact, when I mentioned what was happening here in regards to people speaking well of anarchs, there was a fair amount of outrage. The prevailing view there seemed to be that the Inner Circle gave the agreement tentative acceptance, and therefore the Princes should listen (and you must admit, in Canon, if the Inner Circle says something, the Princes do *not* collectively decide to go do their own thing instead).

That's my first point of contention, I'd say. A significant portion of the Cam seems to be adopting, at worst, a 'wait and see' attitude; most of the respondants from a question regarding how Princes were handling this across the country said their Princes were already adopting formal agreements with their local Movement. This seems to be in line with what was discussed in Seattle, from my information (from my line head, who was at Seattle negotiating for the Anarchs).

Now, there is always room for opposition, but in this case, it would seem that this opposition should draw quick and certain attention from the Archons. After all, of the two Justicar opinions I've seen, Hardestat was roughly 'Wait and see, but thy domain is thy own'... mostly a neutral read. The Toreador Justicar came down heavily on the side of leaving the Movement the Fiery Place alone. PC decisions *should* drive this chronicle, but along the general path paved by major NPCs... otherwise, I'd think that we would have PC Justicars, not NPC ones. The 'Wait and See' and 'Form a Treaty' groups appear to be supported by actions at Global NPC level. The 'Curbstomp the Bastards' group appears wholly unsupported at that level, from what I've seen.

2. I don't believe that a cadre of heavy hitting Anarchs coming to have a chat with a mis-informed Prince is 'stomping a game because I can.' I would feel that this would be just as in character as an Archon showing up to curb-stomp a Caitiff Prince. Both types of action are *heavily* supported in canon, and I don't think either of us would argue that the Archon would be in the right, here. If that is the case, then why would the cadre of Anarchs be in the wrong? They're accomplishing roughly the same thing; enforcing canonical background via application of blunt force trauma. And no, I'm not building a case for bringing Grandpa's new line head into town for some Flowers of Death ginsu; first, I wouldn't ask for that, and second, if you read her Wiki, she's not the type for wanton violence.

I absolutely understand what the Elders are thinking, and why. However, what we're missing (due to the fact that 6th gens are played by PCs and 5th/4th/Justicar/InnerCircle members are all NPCs) is that those same elders still wouldn't Using the Head on a Justicar's desk without permission. They can have personal opinions all they want, but with one Justicar saying 'Wait and See' and the other North American Justicar saying 'Touch them and I will defile you with a rake', I think that visibly acting on those beliefs would violate an Elder's highly developed survival instinct.

Now, it's entirely possible that I'm working off of just one side of the story. I've seen Hardestadt's view, I've seen the Torie Justicar's dispatch to Canada, and I've seen the Anarch negotiating points. I got a report on the meeting from one of the Anarchs in attendence, over the Brujah board. If there is info I'm missing outside of that which contradicts what I've seen, then that may be the problem.

Again, Eric, I appreciate the back-and-forth on this.. helps me form the argument cogently to have to defend it.

Jason Baughman
US2003041531

[Sean McLaughlin]

I would say currently Matt is going a good job of handling the Movement vs the Camarilla interaction. He doesn't want to appear to openly be trying to destroy them but he is looking for good reasons to have them stop being a major factor in his domain. This is a behavior that is to be expected. Simply put, it's his domain he should try and defend it without losing any territory he already claimed.

Greenville/Spartanburg has always been represented as 3 factions Camarilla in central Greenville, Sabat in Central Spartanburg and oddly both VSTs have been using the Anarchs and Independants as antagonists vs their venue.

This was done to prevent an outright desire to curbstomp the other venue. An artificial barrier to prevent the two sides from killing each other. If the Sabbat and Camarilla was actively at war with each other in a city in which only 20 players show up to game then it would quickly topple one venue or the other.

Therefore, the storytellers made a decision along time ago that Anarchs and Independants would be a major antagonist in town.

Now, fast forward to present day. Suddenly we have three anarchs in town and an independant as active characters. Previously all the independants in town were Giovanni that have rules preventing them from joining any sect.

This is my observed treatment. The anarchs are doing their own thing, while the prince is actively trying to figure out if the Anarchs are trying to poach members of the Ivory Tower. This will not do in his city but rules from up high prevent him from openly destroying all Anarchs in his city. He mistakenly gives an option to the gangrel that wants to join the Ivory Tower, this is 'If you can find a sponsor, you can join". This should not have left it in the hands of the player to convince others that they should risk their character to let him join the Camarilla. It's not in the princes benefit to have a roaming independant in his city and the Anarch's viewed this as an oppurtunity to poach themselves a guy that was told by the Camarilla your screwed we don't want you.

But, because he hasn't proven himself to the Anarch's as useful they are using him as a scapegoat for other actions. Like, 'Hey, the prince wanted to talk to you. Let's drive by throw you out the car and drive away." This isn't an attitude of protection for the gangrel but more self preservation for the anarchs.

If the prince was thinking this through correctly he wouldn't tell the kindred that came to his city and stated he wanted to join the Ivory Tower as a pariah. But would instead use that opportunity to make his rivals unconfortable. For example, if he wanted to insure that he had full control over the Gangrel and another kindred in his city he would assign that Gangrel to another city Kindred as a punishment with benefits.

For example: "I have decided that Virgil here wants to be a member of the Ivory Tower, Grandpa, since you seem to have forgotten at times who is the one that makes the final decisions in town. I charge you with teaching Virgil here the traditions and ways of our society. For your teaching he now owes you a Major Boon for your time and services. I will talk to him in one month period of time to see what he has learned. If at that point in time, I am not satisfied with his learning of the Basic Traditions. You will not be owed a Major boon but instead owe him a Minor Boon for wasting his time. I would suggest you explain to him the meaning of boons also."


This would have both automatically said, "Yes, you are under my control." and said "I am prince and should be respected." It would have also given a very good warning to the Anarchs that the Gangrel wasn't up for the taking.

Anyways, it will be interesting to see which way this one goes in the end.


Sean McLaughlin
DST SC-011-D
US2005043229